| Author |
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alan
Guest
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 Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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This person zion9 sounds like a BIG CRY BABY TO ME and wants to start some
hate and discontent.
ALAN
"Chips" <Chips1@reliableins.nospam> wrote in message
news:AiWaf.13608$Zv5.12899@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
| Quote: | Get a McJob.
"zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote in message
news:34c44$435fedb9$4fced8a$25956@DIALUPUSA.NET...
If you are thinking about going to school for a Drafting Degree then
RUN!
Drafters draw blueprints and engineers design them. The current
problem is that somehow Drafting and Designing have become synonymous
terms. It used to be that a Drafter would draw blueprints from an
engineer's/architect's verbal instructions and/or the
engineer's/architect's sketches. Now the Drafter is supposed to know
what took an engineer/architect 4+ years to learn. If the Drafter
cannot "pick it up" what took the engineers/architects 4+ years to
learn then they throw you out the back door on your face in the gravel.
Also, Engineers or Architects are refusing to take time to train
Drafters. They say that they don't have time or go grab a book off of
the shelf and figure it out.
A two-year Associate Degree in Drafting WILL NOT prepare you to be an
engineer and do an engineer's job!
I have not designed (like an engineer) commercial buildings or other
engineering projects, but I did draw them by verbal instruction,
engineering sketches and blueprints.
My Computer Aided Drafting degree, basically, prepared me to draw
blueprints using AutoCAD software. Unfortunately, the local Drafting
courses in Kentucky, the Two-Year Drafting programs, do not prepare you
to do engineering design work (what engineers due with a 4+ year
degree).
Typically, all students come out ready to draw blueprints, as Drafters
have always done in the past, but not design without a Bachelors degree
like an engineer is trained to do.
Today, for the modern Drafter, it is turning into the old catch 22
you-need-experience situation. No one has time or is willing to train
yet they demand experience. Furthermore, if you can't "pick up" what
took engineers four years to learn in a year or; in most cases, thirty
days or less then they will lay you off and insult you by saying you
couldn't catch on fast enough. So what is the Drafter left to do?
A downside for the engineer in today's modern engineering office is
that they are expected to spend all of their time drafting while they
could, more productively, spend their time dealing with public
relations and engineering design. Also, most architects and engineers
that I have spoken with have a weak background in CAD and take only a
couple of classes in Drafting during their college education.
Lastly, as stated in my objective, I am looking for a company who is
flexible and willing to train for non-Drafting engineer Design tasks.
The former title for my past experience would be a "CAD
Detailer/Drafter". I have drawn blueprints, as I was prepared to do by
my two-year Associate Degree, but I have not "designed" as one who is
"trained" by an architectural or engineering firm.
Currently, I have been out of a Drafting position for over 2 years
because engineering firms have become too "picky" and want something
for nothing. I guess it time for me to move on and realize that
Drafting is a dead field.
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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I was "talking" to Wooley, and yes we are all jerks.
"zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote in message
news:f3a41$436c02bb$42d97613$27405@DIALUPUSA.NET...
| Quote: | Michael Bulatovich wrote:
All you need is LINE and MOVE to pull that off....and BRAIN set to
(1).
It reminds me of a job I had as a teenager delivering mail. They
interviewed me, and then gave me ten envelopes to place in
alphabetical order according to street name......in two minutes....
Go!
After 30 seconds they asked me if I wanted to double check my
work....after 45 we were staring at each other somewhat uncomfortably
for the rest of the time allotted. I should have known I couldn't
last at that job right there but I was a kid.
It is funny how smart all the engineers and Architects are. You don't
know me but have me pegged. You know all about my work ethic and how I
work, yet don't know me. Man, you guys are SO smart.
You don't know me to judge me.
Jerks. |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:35:44 -0500, "zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote:
| Quote: | You are STUPID for expecting someone to pull monkeys out of his arse.
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You clearly don't know wingers or fundies.
--
Cliff
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cadalot
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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zion9
Please do not take this as a personal attack
IMHO You appear to have a giant chip on your shoulder and seem to be
taking the comments heefar toor personally, which many were not.
If someone presents themselves as an experianced person for a job then
those skills need to be proved or tested on some way.
Experiance has shown me that the only way to really know how much or
how little the guy knows is to test him.
I agree with your comments about training (or lack there off) There is
a lot of difference between me taking a trainee from school and
training them and paying what is supposed to be an experianced person.
FYI - I ran training during lunch times at work to enable those that
wanted to learn AutoCAD or become better draughtsmen. Many that
attended were Enginieers and Architects there were also Building
Surveyors and Valuers wanting to gain CAD skills.
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:52:23 -0500, "zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote:
| Quote: | cadalot wrote:
Get the guy to produce the drawing and see how he does it and how
accurate he is. If he takes more than 3minutes forget it.
I had one guy who after 20-25 minutes I just said sorry and showed him
the door.
http://www.cadalot.co.uk/how_to_draw/3mintest.pdf
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:21:12 +0100, The-trooper
haha.the-trooper@net.hr.hehe> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
Nearest thing in the uk to what you guys are talking about is a
city & guilds course in AutoCAD, I have seen the wonderful 3D
windmill the guy has drawn, but he can't pass my 3Minute test and
has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
What is that 3Minute test? :)
Hey! Way to go on giving someone the benefit of the doubt! |
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Leon
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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"zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote in message
news:f3a41$436c02bb$42d97613$27405@DIALUPUSA.NET...
| Quote: |
It is funny how smart all the engineers and Architects are. You don't
know me but have me pegged. You know all about my work ethic and how I
work, yet don't know me. Man, you guys are SO smart.
You don't know me to judge me.
|
Well the following statement is seldom wrong.
If looks like a whiner, smells like a whiner, acts like a whiner, it must be
a whiner. |
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CW
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Yep.
"Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:4Q1bf.12987$tV6.2268@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
| Quote: |
"zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote in message
news:f3a41$436c02bb$42d97613$27405@DIALUPUSA.NET...
It is funny how smart all the engineers and Architects are. You don't
know me but have me pegged. You know all about my work ethic and how I
work, yet don't know me. Man, you guys are SO smart.
You don't know me to judge me.
Well the following statement is seldom wrong.
If looks like a whiner, smells like a whiner, acts like a whiner, it must
be
a whiner.
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Robert
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Took me 4.5 minutes
cute
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6dmom1pq9a5vgn96n09p7ouapvfe72c7se@4ax.com...
| Quote: | zion9
Please do not take this as a personal attack
IMHO You appear to have a giant chip on your shoulder and seem to be
taking the comments heefar toor personally, which many were not.
If someone presents themselves as an experianced person for a job then
those skills need to be proved or tested on some way.
Experiance has shown me that the only way to really know how much or
how little the guy knows is to test him.
I agree with your comments about training (or lack there off) There is
a lot of difference between me taking a trainee from school and
training them and paying what is supposed to be an experianced person.
FYI - I ran training during lunch times at work to enable those that
wanted to learn AutoCAD or become better draughtsmen. Many that
attended were Enginieers and Architects there were also Building
Surveyors and Valuers wanting to gain CAD skills.
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:52:23 -0500, "zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote:
cadalot wrote:
Get the guy to produce the drawing and see how he does it and how
accurate he is. If he takes more than 3minutes forget it.
I had one guy who after 20-25 minutes I just said sorry and showed him
the door.
http://www.cadalot.co.uk/how_to_draw/3mintest.pdf
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:21:12 +0100, The-trooper
haha.the-trooper@net.hr.hehe> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
Nearest thing in the uk to what you guys are talking about is a
city & guilds course in AutoCAD, I have seen the wonderful 3D
windmill the guy has drawn, but he can't pass my 3Minute test and
has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
What is that 3Minute test? :)
Hey! Way to go on giving someone the benefit of the doubt! |
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longshot
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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took me just under 2.5 minutes
"Robert" <nospam@tictic.com> wrote in message
news:up4bf.30980$1T3.684150@weber.videotron.net...
| Quote: | Took me 4.5 minutes
cute
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6dmom1pq9a5vgn96n09p7ouapvfe72c7se@4ax.com...
zion9
Please do not take this as a personal attack
IMHO You appear to have a giant chip on your shoulder and seem to be
taking the comments heefar toor personally, which many were not.
If someone presents themselves as an experianced person for a job then
those skills need to be proved or tested on some way.
Experiance has shown me that the only way to really know how much or
how little the guy knows is to test him.
I agree with your comments about training (or lack there off) There is
a lot of difference between me taking a trainee from school and
training them and paying what is supposed to be an experianced person.
FYI - I ran training during lunch times at work to enable those that
wanted to learn AutoCAD or become better draughtsmen. Many that
attended were Enginieers and Architects there were also Building
Surveyors and Valuers wanting to gain CAD skills.
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:52:23 -0500, "zion9" <zion9@blah.com> wrote:
cadalot wrote:
Get the guy to produce the drawing and see how he does it and how
accurate he is. If he takes more than 3minutes forget it.
I had one guy who after 20-25 minutes I just said sorry and showed him
the door.
http://www.cadalot.co.uk/how_to_draw/3mintest.pdf
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:21:12 +0100, The-trooper
haha.the-trooper@net.hr.hehe> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
Nearest thing in the uk to what you guys are talking about is a
city & guilds course in AutoCAD, I have seen the wonderful 3D
windmill the guy has drawn, but he can't pass my 3Minute test and
has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
What is that 3Minute test? :)
Hey! Way to go on giving someone the benefit of the doubt!
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:57:09 GMT, "longshot" <longshot@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | took me just under 2.5 minutes
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How many were looking over you?
That really can matter.
--
Cliff |
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 7:22 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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I'll wager that he's a "keyboard" guy as opposed to a "button" guy.
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:rviqm11mvg31okbnilt7i5r4hdnn1dat33@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:57:09 GMT, "longshot" <longshot@aol.com> wrote:
took me just under 2.5 minutes
How many were looking over you?
That really can matter.
--
Cliff |
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uNkulunkulu
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:q5crm1trimlgsv4ps5qjvqbrnbhkjc8sql@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:22:05 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
Please@dont.try> wrote:
I'll wager that he's a "keyboard" guy as opposed to a "button" guy.
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:rviqm11mvg31okbnilt7i5r4hdnn1dat33@4ax.com...
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:57:09 GMT, "longshot" <longshot@aol.com> wrote:
took me just under 2.5 minutes
How many were looking over you?
That really can matter.
That's another thing .... different keyboards & system
configurations.
Those keys move about too. And sometimes the ESC key is
very important. Then there's the FEEL of the keyboard ...
(personally, I LIKED [and miss] the old IBM ones ... you
got good solid clicks ....)
|
Personally its not how fast but how accurate. No point on doing it in 3
minutes if the answer is wrong, take 5 and be right.
--
uNkulunkulu
uMvelinqangi
Mina bona wena
mina bona lo mombi yena lo shatini
Skat lo Boss yena fika, nika yena iwhisky |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Sat, 5 Nov 2005 20:22:05 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
<Please@dont.try> wrote:
| Quote: | I'll wager that he's a "keyboard" guy as opposed to a "button" guy.
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:rviqm11mvg31okbnilt7i5r4hdnn1dat33@4ax.com...
On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:57:09 GMT, "longshot" <longshot@aol.com> wrote:
took me just under 2.5 minutes
How many were looking over you?
That really can matter.
|
That's another thing .... different keyboards & system
configurations.
Those keys move about too. And sometimes the ESC key is
very important. Then there's the FEEL of the keyboard ...
(personally, I LIKED [and miss] the old IBM ones ... you
got good solid clicks ....)
--
Cliff |
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Greg Farris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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zion9
Times change.
Every CEO has a PC on his (her) desk now, and most do at least some of their
correspondence from it. Typing pools are mostly gone, and even large
companies share one secretary position amongst whole departments, with
engineers and managers making up the difference by doing some of their own
secretarial work.
I completely agree with you that many CAD positions are underpaid. I see
many AutoCad positions advertised at about 1.5X minimum wage - when the
skill and understanding required to do the job well should be worth much
more than that. That's just the way it is - few companies today have a lot
to invest in someone who just does AutoCad.
What would you think of a secretary who says "I'm not into all of this
"personal assistant" nonsense, and I don't care about Word, Powerpoint and
Excel. I just type - that's it." You'd probably say she isn't selling her
skills very well, and doesn't seem interested in investing what's necessary
to get a better job.
Take the hint - zion9. There are good jobs out there, and many employers
take it as a godsend if one of the applicants has AutoCad skills - but no
one today wants someone who says "You show me where all the lines go, and
I'll just click the mouse button."
If you feel you have AutoCad proficiency, but lack the necessary skills to
present yourself in a more demanding position, then you'll have to start as
a drafter, possibly in an underpaid position. If you invest in learning the
company's business, however, then you can move up. Learn enough, and you'll
soon be able to present yourself to other companies as a designer/drafter -
many many working "engineers" do not have engineering degrees, but learned
on the job.
Any company in a hiring position is interested in someone ambitious, curious
and eager to learn. If they can get a Cad person at a low wage, they'll take
it - the rest is up to you.
G Faris |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:19:38 +0100, Greg Farris <nonum@goaway.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | I completely agree with you that many CAD positions are underpaid. I see
many AutoCad positions advertised at about 1.5X minimum wage
|
I gather that AutoCad may be low-end entry-level still. Cheap
enough for the trade schools to use, anyway.
Last I looked at it (Rev. 10) it could not even model the
average cheap-o ashtray.
On the good side: You could pretty much learn it all in two hours,
as compared to possible years for the better systems of the day.
--
Cliff |
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Greg Farris
Guest
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| Posted:
Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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In article <h74sm1pv2glf807a2kll32vtjp4osdq68d@4ax.com>, Clhuprich@aol.com
says...
| Quote: |
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:19:38 +0100, Greg Farris <nonum@goaway.com
wrote:
I completely agree with you that many CAD positions are underpaid. I see
many AutoCad positions advertised at about 1.5X minimum wage
I gather that AutoCad may be low-end entry-level still. Cheap
enough for the trade schools to use, anyway.
Last I looked at it (Rev. 10) it could not even model the
average cheap-o ashtray.
On the good side: You could pretty much learn it all in two hours,
as compared to possible years for the better systems of the day.
--
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One would have to try very seriously to be further off the mark! |
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