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Message |
cadalot
Guest
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 Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Cliff
The modern brick size in the UK is 65mmx215mmx102.5mm (OK they are
made of clay and the size varies a little from brick to brick. And you
will see the width taken as 100, 102, 103 or evem 105 by Architects.
However it is accepted that the thickniess or mortar is 10mm thus the
building module becomes 225 x 75mm. The BDA Brick Development
Association produces tables that give the amount of bricks used in
various typical situations. i.e.
A straight wall
A wall with returns either end
A wall with a return one end
Over openinigs etc etc
It's the basic setting out of drawings / plans such that the amount of
brick cutting can be kept to a minimum and the very basic information
about the materials they are drawing and how they are placed, whatever
type or grade of mortar is being used.
Alan
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 00:13:22 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
and has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
How are they "bonded"?
The entire field of various types of
cements is rather complex andcontinues
to evolve.
Then there is workmanship ..... and many,
many types of "bricks". |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk>
wrote:
| Quote: | and has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
|
How are they "bonded"?
The entire field of various types of
cements is rather complex andcontinues
to evolve.
Then there is workmanship ..... and many,
many types of "bricks".
--
Cliff |
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cadalot
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Mike
A little more than LINE and MOVE……
There are two concentric squares that appear twice in the arrangement;
I would look for those to be drawn using rectangle and offset maybe,
and then copied and moved into the correct location (How did they go
about that process?). Could they see where they could save time in the
drawing process? I would watch to see how they would draw the shapes,
x,y or polar or tracking, did they draw a line from the centre figure
to the location point of each element around the centre element then
delete or did they offset from a point. How did they handle OSNAP or
did they snap at all, did they go beyond the basic figures as asked
for, (could they read and understand an basic instruction) and add the
dimensions? Did the final drawing match the information provided i.e.
was it dimensionally accurate or did it just look right.
As you say a very simple test, but I wanted to see that these guys
could produce accurate work and understood coordinates and snaps etc.
This little test really helped me weed out those people that were time
wasters and wanting to learn CAD on the job.
I had other short tests that were based upon my training material that
then showed me they had an understanding of layers and dimensioning.
Before my company let me start vetting the Agency Draughtsmen that
they were employing we had some wonderful crap produced by these
people. I can send you a drawing I use to this day to show what good
draughtsmanship isn't
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:10:07 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
<Please@dont.try> wrote:
| Quote: | All you need is LINE and MOVE to pull that off....and BRAIN set to (1).
It reminds me of a job I had as a teenager delivering mail. They interviewed
me, and then gave me ten envelopes to place in alphabetical order according
to street name......in two minutes.... Go!
After 30 seconds they asked me if I wanted to double check my work....after
45 we were staring at each other somewhat uncomfortably for the rest of the
time allotted. I should have known I couldn't last at that job right there
but I was a kid.
-- |
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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All you need is LINE and MOVE to pull that off....and BRAIN set to (1).
It reminds me of a job I had as a teenager delivering mail. They interviewed
me, and then gave me ten envelopes to place in alphabetical order according
to street name......in two minutes.... Go!
After 30 seconds they asked me if I wanted to double check my work....after
45 we were staring at each other somewhat uncomfortably for the rest of the
time allotted. I should have known I couldn't last at that job right there
but I was a kid.
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4c5dm11u2i44vgi5bt2jphkujgkt0cjgei@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Get the guy to produce the drawing and see how he does it and how
accurate he is. If he takes more than 3minutes forget it.
I had one guy who after 20-25 minutes I just said sorry and showed him
the door.
http://www.cadalot.co.uk/how_to_draw/3mintest.pdf
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 22:21:12 +0100, The-trooper
haha.the-trooper@net.hr.hehe> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
Nearest thing in the uk to what you guys are talking about is a city &
guilds course in AutoCAD, I have seen the wonderful 3D windmill the
guy has drawn, but he can't pass my 3Minute test and has no
understanding on how bricks are bonded
What is that 3Minute test? :) |
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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I was boiling it down to the minimum. You can do it with two commands.
If the British judge is giving extra points for difficulty ; )
you could throw in a few more, obviously, but you can do it with just the
two (with ortho on)
in the timeframe you mention.
So you actually sit there and watch them while they do it?
That's a pressure cooker for a young person, unless they are
quite confident.
I've seen lots of terrible drafting in the various architecture
offices where I interned, and know that if I were giving points
for style (especially) many wouldn't get past this exercise,
including a couple of guys with Master's.
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e62em19jqpoqddnfrrf3coc6mov5uh8388@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
Mike
A little more than LINE and MOVE..
There are two concentric squares that appear twice in the arrangement;
I would look for those to be drawn using rectangle and offset maybe,
and then copied and moved into the correct location (How did they go
about that process?). Could they see where they could save time in the
drawing process? I would watch to see how they would draw the shapes,
x,y or polar or tracking, did they draw a line from the centre figure
to the location point of each element around the centre element then
delete or did they offset from a point. How did they handle OSNAP or
did they snap at all, did they go beyond the basic figures as asked
for, (could they read and understand an basic instruction) and add the
dimensions? Did the final drawing match the information provided i.e.
was it dimensionally accurate or did it just look right.
As you say a very simple test, but I wanted to see that these guys
could produce accurate work and understood coordinates and snaps etc.
This little test really helped me weed out those people that were time
wasters and wanting to learn CAD on the job.
I had other short tests that were based upon my training material that
then showed me they had an understanding of layers and dimensioning.
Before my company let me start vetting the Agency Draughtsmen that
they were employing we had some wonderful crap produced by these
people. I can send you a drawing I use to this day to show what good
draughtsmanship isn't
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:10:07 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
Please@dont.try> wrote:
All you need is LINE and MOVE to pull that off....and BRAIN set to (1).
It reminds me of a job I had as a teenager delivering mail. They
interviewed
me, and then gave me ten envelopes to place in alphabetical order
according
to street name......in two minutes.... Go!
After 30 seconds they asked me if I wanted to double check my
work....after
45 we were staring at each other somewhat uncomfortably for the rest of
the
time allotted. I should have known I couldn't last at that job right there
but I was a kid.
-- |
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zenboom
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:53 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e62em19jqpoqddnfrrf3coc6mov5uh8388@4ax.com...
| Quote: |
Mike
A little more than LINE and MOVE..
|
Sir, could I have some more ?
More tests! More tests! |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 22:53:23 +0200, "zenboom"
<?signal.ds?@?bluebottle.com?> wrote:
| Quote: | Sir, could I have some more ?
More tests! More tests!
|
[
You are given three demos numbered respectively 1, 2, and 3. #1 and #3
contain salesmen, banquers, and advertising. #2 contains banquers. All
the banquers happen to be blinking in this case. The demos may contain
other things than those listed above.
Definition: An banquer is something that blinks whenever it detects
the presence of advertising in demo(s) other than it's own demo.
Definition: Salesmen cannot communicate; they can see all the
banquers; they can see all the demos and the numbers on them, plus
advertising that is in any of the demos other than their own demo.
Definition: Advertising is a substance invisible to the human eye, but
visible to salesmen and detectable by banquers.
Definition: A demo has a number written on it; it may contain
anything, but each demo has a definite content. A demo makes all
advertising and banquers which it contains invisible to all salesmen
which it contains. That is, salesmen cannot see anything of the
contents of their own respective demo.
Problem: The salesmen are trying to definitely answer the following
question: "Is there any advertising within my own demo?" They cannot
solve their dilemma.
You must determine, using the above information, whether or not demo
#2 contains advertising. You can definitely solve your problem with a
yes or no, and a reason for your conclusion.
] |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:13:10 -0500, "Steve" <elbazarc@videotron.ca>
wrote:
| Quote: | Cliff,
Refer to your first statement:
Once you think it's about "drawing" you have already lost.
which contradicts your last statement:
You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskilled labor,
|
How so? They have probably already lost. Their employer
as well.
| Quote: | Drafting a BOM in 3D is still drawing parts.
|
A BOM is annotation. It's not 3D parts or
actually parts of any sort. It's just a list.
| Quote: | So which one is it?
|
BOMs can often be automatically extracted on good systems.
From the models & assemblies .....
--
Cliff |
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Steve
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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U.K. sounds like a simple gig to me. Here we have half dozen brick modules
to work with.
Modular Metric
C.S.R.
Norman
etc..
Then there are imperial size windows openings while using modular metric
bricks.Try figuring that one out!
Steve
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gc2em15kvt18cpjr1tg2sm2kikvrfiuqoj@4ax.com...
| Quote: | Cliff
The modern brick size in the UK is 65mmx215mmx102.5mm (OK they are
made of clay and the size varies a little from brick to brick. And you
will see the width taken as 100, 102, 103 or evem 105 by Architects.
However it is accepted that the thickniess or mortar is 10mm thus the
building module becomes 225 x 75mm. The BDA Brick Development
Association produces tables that give the amount of bricks used in
various typical situations. i.e.
A straight wall
A wall with returns either end
A wall with a return one end
Over openinigs etc etc
It's the basic setting out of drawings / plans such that the amount of
brick cutting can be kept to a minimum and the very basic information
about the materials they are drawing and how they are placed, whatever
type or grade of mortar is being used.
Alan
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 00:13:22 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
and has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
How are they "bonded"?
The entire field of various types of
cements is rather complex andcontinues
to evolve.
Then there is workmanship ..... and many,
many types of "bricks". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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|
Don't forget Jumbo, Ontario, Norman Engineer, etc.
A nightmare.
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
"Steve" <elbazarc@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:x%saf.2340$Se5.66111@wagner.videotron.net...
| Quote: |
U.K. sounds like a simple gig to me. Here we have half dozen brick modules
to work with.
Modular Metric
C.S.R.
Norman
etc..
Then there are imperial size windows openings while using modular metric
bricks.Try figuring that one out!
Steve
"cadalot" <alan@killspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gc2em15kvt18cpjr1tg2sm2kikvrfiuqoj@4ax.com...
Cliff
The modern brick size in the UK is 65mmx215mmx102.5mm (OK they are
made of clay and the size varies a little from brick to brick. And you
will see the width taken as 100, 102, 103 or evem 105 by Architects.
However it is accepted that the thickniess or mortar is 10mm thus the
building module becomes 225 x 75mm. The BDA Brick Development
Association produces tables that give the amount of bricks used in
various typical situations. i.e.
A straight wall
A wall with returns either end
A wall with a return one end
Over openinigs etc etc
It's the basic setting out of drawings / plans such that the amount of
brick cutting can be kept to a minimum and the very basic information
about the materials they are drawing and how they are placed, whatever
type or grade of mortar is being used.
Alan
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 00:13:22 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 07:19:52 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk
wrote:
and has no understanding on how bricks are bonded
How are they "bonded"?
The entire field of various types of
cements is rather complex andcontinues
to evolve.
Then there is workmanship ..... and many,
many types of "bricks".
|
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| Back to top |
|
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Steve
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Cliff,
Refer to your first statement:
<<Once you think it's about "drawing" you have already lost.>>
which contradicts your last statement:
<<You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
| Quote: | a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskiled labor,
|
Drafting a BOM in 3D is still drawing parts.
So which one is it?
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:alq2m19j4bdfeve94jj1f1ntlc3j5usd9u@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:30:45 GMT, Modat22 <modat22@yahoo.com> wrote:
2D alone has been obsolete for over 20 years. IIRC 1982 was the
last year I worked with such. On a fully 3D system (CADDS III).
Drawings are for annotation of 3D models where such data is
not directly in the 3D model. Notes, labels, perhaps a few dimensions,
depending, tolerances, etc.
I can draw
Once you think it's about "drawing" you have already lost.
2d or 3d, but in the 15 years that I've worked with Cad
I've never had to draw anything in 3D. (HVAC/Plumbing/electrical
building systems)
You & yours are wasting most of your time and risking huge errors.
I also hope we don't switch to 3D in the building services field, Its
bad enough having to change 100,000 square foot hvac or electrical
designs in 2D every time an architect changes a walls location by 3
inches.
It should be much easier in 3D.
To move it all, just use a window & "stretch" it to
the new position then regenerate if/as needed.
The AEGIS guided missile destroyers with their
milions of parts and thousands of miles of
HVAC/Plumbing/electrical/etc. were long ago
designed in 3D.
OTOH You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskiled labor, IMHO <G>.
--
Cliff |
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cadalot
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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The window people for standard size windows work to the old imperial
size bricks which were a different module. But if you are going to
make windows for the scheme why not use the modular size?
Blocks are based on a similar module to bricks i.e. 3 bricks high so
215mm + 10mm mortar and 440 ling with 10mm perp. Thus the cavity wall
ties can match up with courses in the inner and outer leaf.
I had toinvestigate a building (read sports complex) where the walls
seemed to move when a UK footbal was kicked againit it. On opening up
we found the the builder had not lined up the briick and block
coursinig so had bent all the wall ties into the cavity out og the way
so he could build his outer leaf.
Bring back the COW
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:15:50 -0500, "Michael Bulatovich"
<Please@dont.try> wrote:
| Quote: | Don't forget Jumbo, Ontario, Norman Engineer, etc.
A nightmare. |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:17:07 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | More tests! More tests!
|
No takers <G>?
--
Cliff |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 07:54:13 +0000, cadalot <alan@killspam.co.uk>
wrote:
I understand that the windows installed by the
fly-by-night double-glazed after-market folks are
good for perhaps 5 years .... while the original
windows might last 100 ..... hadthey not been
removed ....
--
Cliff |
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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How about meeting those deadlines? ; )
--
MichaelB
www.michaelbulatovich.ca
"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:evgmm1dafen596orqr6rlkenecjda1q9ge@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 18:17:07 -0500, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
More tests! More tests!
No takers <G>?
--
Cliff |
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