| Author |
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Michael Bulatovich
Guest
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 Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: Drafting is DEAD ! ! ! |
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Yeah. Sounds like Kentucky is dead. It's tough when the place you love won't
support you doing the things you love. Something's gotta give. Maybe you
should think more like an entrepreneur?
"Longshot" <Longshot@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xwa8f.481160$_o.377303@attbi_s71...
| Quote: | move away from Kentucky. Indiana is thriving with jobs
"Dancer" <highpockets14@hotmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:47CdnWFRX5e0qfzeRVn_vQ@giganews.com...
I agree with zion9 Drafting is dead. I am a Kentuckian as well with a
2-year associate degree and I can't even buy a drafting position. The
sad part about it is that I DO enjoy drafting. :cry: :cry:
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:17 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:30:45 GMT, Modat22 <modat22@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
2D alone has been obsolete for over 20 years. IIRC 1982 was the
last year I worked with such. On a fully 3D system (CADDS III).
Drawings are for annotation of 3D models where such data is
not directly in the 3D model. Notes, labels, perhaps a few dimensions,
depending, tolerances, etc.
I can draw
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Once you think it's about "drawing" you have already lost.
| Quote: | 2d or 3d, but in the 15 years that I've worked with Cad
I've never had to draw anything in 3D. (HVAC/Plumbing/electrical
building systems)
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You & yours are wasting most of your time and risking huge errors.
| Quote: | I also hope we don't switch to 3D in the building services field, Its
bad enough having to change 100,000 square foot hvac or electrical
designs in 2D every time an architect changes a walls location by 3
inches.
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It should be much easier in 3D.
To move it all, just use a window & "stretch" it to
the new position then regenerate if/as needed.
The AEGIS guided missile destroyers with their
milions of parts and thousands of miles of
HVAC/Plumbing/electrical/etc. were long ago
designed in 3D.
OTOH You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskiled labor, IMHO <G>.
--
Cliff |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:20 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:24:39 GMT, Modat22 <modat22@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | and not wanting to follow company drafting methods
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There exist standards for such and most systems can
be configured to use them by default.
ANSI, JIS, ISO, etc.
Was that what you had in mind?
OTOH If your firm violates standards as THE rule ....
--
Cliff
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Marc Clamage
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:49 am Post subject:
Re: Drafting is DEAD ! ! ! |
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I have a Masters in Fine Arts. I picked up drafting working for various
architectural firms, first as a typist, then doing, computer graphics and 3D
modeling. I got laid off in 1999 and went to work as a consultant. I've
never pretended to have any knowledge of architecture. Give me your sketches
or red lines and I'll get 'em back to you, fast, accurate, in accordance
with your standards, and at a reasonable price. I've got to think that
architects and engineers (I've worked for both) are more particular here in
Massachusetts than they are in Kentucky and nobody's ever complained about
my drafting skills. I'm back at a corporate job again doing graphics and 3D
and I'm having a great time learning Sketchup and Piranesi on the company
dime. Aren't there any temp agencies in Kentucky? There's plenty of call for
CAD monkeys around here.
Marc
"Michael Bulatovich" <Please@dont.try> wrote in message
news:Rhb8f.7391$ki7.520291@news20.bellglobal.com...
| Quote: | Yeah. Sounds like Kentucky is dead. It's tough when the place you love
won't support you doing the things you love. Something's gotta give. Maybe
you should think more like an entrepreneur?
"Longshot" <Longshot@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Xwa8f.481160$_o.377303@attbi_s71...
move away from Kentucky. Indiana is thriving with jobs
"Dancer" <highpockets14@hotmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:47CdnWFRX5e0qfzeRVn_vQ@giganews.com...
I agree with zion9 Drafting is dead. I am a Kentuckian as well with a
2-year associate degree and I can't even buy a drafting position. The
sad part about it is that I DO enjoy drafting. :cry: :cry:
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SimonLW
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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"Cliff" <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote in message
news:gig1m1h4v5fu3gndndukaon6hjtrd55tq3@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:34:30 -0400, "SimonLW" <nospam@donet.com
wrote:
We can even give a "published" version of the model (not the DWG)
to the client with the 3D viewer and they can visualize what their plant
will look like. The response was tremendous when we first started doing
this.
Intergraph 20+ years ago IIRC, among others.
You are way behind.
|
We are beyond many companies in our business. Many of our clients have never
seen this capability offered. Sure, mainframe systems have been avaialble
for years and even PC based 3D has been available since the late 80's, but
smaller engineering firms could not afford mainframes so they used PCs. PCs
could not handle large models until the late 90's when large memory became
affordable and CPUs got faster.
| Quote: | What I'm getting at, is men and women looking to enter the drafting trades
should consider honing their 3D skills. We have a hard time finding people
who 3D well!
2D alone has been obsolete for over 20 years. IIRC 1982 was the
last year I worked with such. On a fully 3D system (CADDS III).
Drawings are for annotation of 3D models where such data is
not directly in the 3D model. Notes, labels, perhaps a few dimensions,
depending, tolerances, etc.
--
Cliff |
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Modat22
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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| Quote: |
It should be much easier in 3D.
To move it all, just use a window & "stretch" it to
the new position then regenerate if/as needed.
The AEGIS guided missile destroyers with their
milions of parts and thousands of miles of
HVAC/Plumbing/electrical/etc. were long ago
designed in 3D.
OTOH You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskiled labor, IMHO <G>.
|
Though I since a few insults toward my drafting opinions, I'll admit
that 3D work would be nice if done correctly. But the Architects that
provide the drawings that we work with and hire us must first produce
the 3D floor plans which has not happened yet.
I am comfortable drafting in 3D or 2D having once worked for a few
years for an injection molding plant. I still think that 3D requires
more keystrokes to edit over a 2D drawing in production drafting
(where the client requires our designs and drawings in the quickest
time)
If a person can't look at building sections to determine a pipe, duct,
conduit routing they should not be in the design drafting business. |
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Modat22
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Drafting is DEAD ! ! ! |
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On Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:10:17 -0500,
highpockets14@hotmail-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (Dancer) wrote:
| Quote: | I agree with zion9 Drafting is dead. I am a Kentuckian as well with a
2-year associate degree and I can't even buy a drafting position. The
sad part about it is that I DO enjoy drafting. :cry: :cry:
|
Start doing side line jobs from the Internet. There are web sites
around that list employers seeking people to do CAD work (usually
converting old hand tracings to CAD). The pay isn't bad but the taxes
suck just remember to stick 20 percent of EVERYTHING you make in a
savings account for taxes. |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:12:05 GMT, Modat22 <modat22@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
It should be much easier in 3D.
To move it all, just use a window & "stretch" it to
the new position then regenerate if/as needed.
The AEGIS guided missile destroyers with their
milions of parts and thousands of miles of
HVAC/Plumbing/electrical/etc. were long ago
designed in 3D.
OTOH You might be using 2D AutoCAD and be
a 2D "drafter".
Lowest level on the food chain and mostly
obsolete unskiled labor, IMHO <G>.
Though I since a few insults toward my drafting opinions, I'll admit
that 3D work would be nice if done correctly. But the Architects that
provide the drawings that we work with and hire us must first produce
the 3D floor plans which has not happened yet.
I am comfortable drafting in 3D or 2D having once worked for a few
years for an injection molding plant. I still think that 3D requires
more keystrokes to edit over a 2D drawing in production drafting
(where the client requires our designs and drawings in the quickest
time)
If a person can't look at building sections to determine a pipe, duct,
conduit routing they should not be in the design drafting business. |
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Longshot
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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.. I still think that 3D requires
| Quote: | more keystrokes to edit over a 2D drawing in production drafting
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a 3d model can be changed in one view & the other views are automatically
completed. a 2d requires separate changes in multiple views & much more room
for error. |
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Modat22
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:42:36 -0400, Cliff <Clhuprich@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:32:53 GMT, "Longshot" <Longshot@aol.com> wrote:
. I still think that 3D requires
more keystrokes to edit over a 2D drawing in production drafting
a 3d model can be changed in one view & the other views are automatically
completed. a 2d requires separate changes in multiple views & much more room
for error.
|
We only use one view in our work. I usually create a base sheet that
references whatever architectural drawings we have, locate whatever
electrical, hvac, plumbing items needed. then setup mviews breaking up
the larger base sheet into whatever I need at whatever plot scale is
needed. I only edit the one view.
| Quote: |
Associated dimensions should also update, among other things.
And the math of the views & the model pretty much has
to be right ... the views are free as they are just extracted from
the 3D model.
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I've never had to do any dimensioning on our projects. I did when I
worked for a injection molding co. but associated dimensions where
very easy to update
| Quote: | How many of you are just editing the text in dimensions on 2D
*scaled* drawings?
LOL ....
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I agree with the LOL
I just started building a little CNC wood router to do some wood
carvings and look forward to seeing some 3D acad creations come to
life in my work shop. |
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Cliff
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:32:53 GMT, "Longshot" <Longshot@aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
. I still think that 3D requires
more keystrokes to edit over a 2D drawing in production drafting
a 3d model can be changed in one view & the other views are automatically
completed. a 2d requires separate changes in multiple views & much more room
for error.
|
Associated dimensions should also update, among other things.
And the math of the views & the model pretty much has
to be right ... the views are free as they are just extracted from
the 3D model.
How many of you are just editing the text in dimensions on 2D
*scaled* drawings?
LOL ....
--
Cliff |
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Dan Deckert
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:10 pm Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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What program are you using for 3d generation?
Dan
"SimonLW" <nospam@donet.com> wrote in message
news:4360ba82$1_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
| Quote: | "Michael Bulatovich" <Please@dont.try> wrote in message
news:zLT7f.7044$ki7.409544@news20.bellglobal.com...
Same here in Canada. I don't know the OP at all, and I don't know what
he
hopes to gain by his post. I don't know anything about him, but if the
days of "dumb drafting" are over you won't see me shed a tear.
I once worked in an office of mostly community college cad jockeys, and
their attitude towards their work was deplorable. The only thing they
cared about were their paychecks, beer, pot, sex, and their cars. One
guy
handed me a supposedly finished set of plans for a house and there was
an
entire of corner of the house which had no means of structural support.
When I asked him how he could take a set of drawings as far as he did
without a clue about how it stood up, he said he couldn't figure that
part
out, so he just moved on.
I hope these "cad jockeys" aren't expected to design structural support.
That's the job of the structural engineer.
Elsewhere, I have had the honor of working with "mere" draftsman who
elevated their work to the level of a fine craft, and they taught me a
lot
that I still carry around today. These guys don't have to look for work.
Work comes looking for them.
--
We generate models in 3D. With 3D "walkthrough" software, we can visualize
the model. We can even give a "published" version of the model (not the
DWG)
to the client with the 3D viewer and they can visualize what their plant
will look like. The response was tremendous when we first started doing
this.
What I'm getting at, is men and women looking to enter the drafting trades
should consider honing their 3D skills. We have a hard time finding people
who 3D well!
-S
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zion9
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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zion9 wrote:
| Quote: | If you are thinking about going to school for a Drafting Degree then
RUN!
Drafters draw blueprints and engineers design them. The current
problem is that somehow Drafting and Designing have become synonymous
terms. It used to be that a Drafter would draw blueprints from an
engineer's/architect's verbal instructions and/or the
engineer's/architect's sketches. Now the Drafter is supposed to know
what took an engineer/architect 4+ years to learn. If the Drafter
cannot "pick it up" what took the engineers/architects 4+ years to
learn then they throw you out the back door on your face in the
gravel.
Also, Engineers or Architects are refusing to take time to train
Drafters. They say that they don't have time or go grab a book off of
the shelf and figure it out.
A two-year Associate Degree in Drafting WILL NOT prepare you to be an
engineer and do an engineer's job!
I have not designed (like an engineer) commercial buildings or other
engineering projects, but I did draw them by verbal instruction,
engineering sketches and blueprints.
My Computer Aided Drafting degree, basically, prepared me to draw
blueprints using AutoCAD software. Unfortunately, the local Drafting
courses in Kentucky, the Two-Year Drafting programs, do not prepare
you to do engineering design work (what engineers due with a 4+ year
degree).
Typically, all students come out ready to draw blueprints, as Drafters
have always done in the past, but not design without a Bachelors
degree like an engineer is trained to do.
Today, for the modern Drafter, it is turning into the old catch 22
you-need-experience situation. No one has time or is willing to train
yet they demand experience. Furthermore, if you can't "pick up" what
took engineers four years to learn in a year or; in most cases, thirty
days or less then they will lay you off and insult you by saying you
couldn't catch on fast enough. So what is the Drafter left to do?
A downside for the engineer in today's modern engineering office is
that they are expected to spend all of their time drafting while they
could, more productively, spend their time dealing with public
relations and engineering design. Also, most architects and engineers
that I have spoken with have a weak background in CAD and take only a
couple of classes in Drafting during their college education.
Lastly, as stated in my objective, I am looking for a company who is
flexible and willing to train for non-Drafting engineer Design tasks.
The former title for my past experience would be a "CAD
Detailer/Drafter". I have drawn blueprints, as I was prepared to do
by my two-year Associate Degree, but I have not "designed" as one who
is "trained" by an architectural or engineering firm.
Currently, I have been out of a Drafting position for over 2 years
because engineering firms have become too "picky" and want something
for nothing. I guess it time for me to move on and realize that
Drafting is a dead field.
|
I am not surprised by the insulting replies of these posts why the CAD
Drafter will always be in a catch 22 situation. Expected to "design"
with no engineering education, or as some have mentioned, not even a
Drafting degree!
I wouldn't be surprised if closed-minded engineers who always enjoy
blaming the CAD operator for their lack of design skills made these
posts. Every engineer needs a scapegoat. Why not the Drafter?
Drafters draw blueprints and engineers design them.
So you either train the Drafter or you end up having a huge company
turnover in the CAD Department. Duhh! I thought companies were
smarter than that.
I am not trying to be pejorative or overly snarky. I just feel that I
have been in a catch 22 situation at every architectural or engineering
firm. They always expect more than what my degree prepared me for.
You don't have to worry. I have been out of my field for two years. I
have applied at over 20 engineering firms and get the same, "Can you
design BS."
No one will train and no one gives a flying monkey's arse. They expect
you to walk-in and do the engineers job for him/her.
I am sorry. I just feel that what engineering/architectural firms
expect from the Drafter is unfair. I also think the schools are
responsible for not preparing the students for the demands of the
engineering firms.
I asked one Architect, "What type of education would it take to have me
prepared enough to work for your company?"
He said, "I don’t know, but all I know is that we need a designer and
we don't have time to train you."
Wow! If he didn't know then who does?
There is either the two-year Associate Degree Drafting courses or
engineering courses.
What the Hell am I supposed to do to be good enough? I mean, I already
went to school for two-years and a certified AutoCAD Drafting course?!!
I am sorry but I think engineering firms are too damn picky and expect
a rocket scientist for minimal pay.
My definition of Drafter/CAD Operator: Underpaid Engineer
My point: You cant squeeze blood from a turnip.
As one poster mentioned, what do I have to accomplish?
I dont know, but I was filling out an application for McDonalds while
putting on the application that I have a two-year Associate Degree.
And for the smart asses, I do take pride in my work and did my best,
but it wasn't good enough. They wanted engineers/architects.
The engineers and architects love to whine and moan about not finding
good CAD Opereators. Have they ever considered that their standards
may be too high and that the fact that they wont train is the issue.
Hell, I forgot, everyone needs a scapegoat. |
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CW
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Not to long ago, you were arguing against 3D. Finally made the change, huh?
"Longshot" <Longshot@aol.com> wrote in message
news:VTo8f.281682$084.102433@attbi_s22...
| Quote: |
a 3d model can be changed in one view & the other views are automatically
completed. a 2d requires separate changes in multiple views & much more
room
for error.
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zion9
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:10 am Post subject:
Re: Dead Career - Drafting |
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Cliff wrote:
| Quote: | Once you think it's about "drawing" you have already lost.
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True very true. No one will train and you have to be like the
Bewitched show and wiggle your nose to get instant Bachelors degree
knowledge with only a two-year CAD Drafting degree.
I guess the engineers want to do it all him or herself or something. :-P
You don’t throw a baby in a swimming pool and tell it to swim!
When will the logic ever sink in???
Stop blaming the Drafter for lack of willingness to train! Duhh! |
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